Unproductive Communication

This week we discuss Linden Lab’s updated Policy on Third Party Viewers, how the controversial new clauses will effect your Second Life experience and more.

This week’s topics include:


Bernhard Drax (Draxtor Despres) is a musician, new media producer, and machinima journalist.

Karl Stiefvater (Qarl Fizz, formerly Qarl Linden) is visual effects artist, software developer, and interactive designer extraordinaire.

Thank you to our sponsor, Pretty Feet!

About Kim/Gianna

Kimberly Winnington (SL: Gianna Borgnine) is the Emmy nominated owner and CEO of Sand Castle Studios, LLC, a company dedicated to helping organizations maximize the full potential of virtual worlds and social media by creating interactive, social, and 3D experiences. For the last 5 years, Kimberly has helped SCS clients stay ahead of the curve and is a respected resource for information on current and developing trends, social media, and immersive experiences.
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36 Responses to Unproductive Communication

  1. Vanessa says:

    – I’ll never understand why any viewer team thought it was nifty to have ‘true online status’ as a gimmick rolled into their viewer. Good that it is to be broken
    – Viewer devs don’t submit code to lindenlab? Surprised. Not.
    – viewer tags were another senseless abomination. Good they’ve been broken too. It takes a special sort of ego to believe that this has been broken because lindenlab is upset at ‘the sea of non LL viewers’. I don’t need to see the tag to know that its phoenix viewers that are seizing up the sim I’m in.
    – Kim is correct in that ‘most’ TPV code is crap, so why would lindenlab offer to pay for it? Interesting that so many TPV’s will not contribute code, but will happily take code from a handful of other devs who can actually write it. Is it laziness or inability? Probably both.
    – The ‘cliched perception’ of nutters in SL as raving lunatics is unfortunately accurate. And this is why lindenlab treats residents the way they do. Sadly, practically all blogs I have read this week have not been worth my time, consisting of hate filled rants against a private company. Secondlife is not a country and lindenlab is not a government people!
    – perhaps if TPVs actually managed to produce a quality viewer that did not cause issues for so many users, Lindenlab would take a different stance. Also, its interesting that there has been zero innovation in viewers since Emerald, just coasting along on the development that ceased 18 months ago. Why should the majority of TPVs have any consideration from lindenlab? It needs to be earned you know. Dysfunctional viewers need to be blocked, and their devs need to be hammered.
    – I do believe that TPVs have brought this lindenlab policy upon themselves, particularly over the past 12 months. Gathering the community together simply to rant and rail against lindenlab will not be productive at all, and will only do harm, IMO. Perhaps the TPVs need to look at their own behaviour and inactivity to determine why this new policy has been introduced.
    – re the article on the fake linden bitching about the workplace – I’m stunned that article was taken as gospel truth, enough to write another nonsensical article that people fell over themselves to agree with. And residents wonder why lindenlab doesn’t take them seriously?

  2. Metacam Oh says:

    Qarl is dead right. Linden Lab keeps telling its customers no. They never adhere to their current customers, they continue to make moves and policy changes based on some fantasy customer they keep chasing, yet fail to realize perhaps all the things the current customers are asking for, future customers would like too. I want to slam my head against the wall seeing the way Linden Lab reacts to its users.

    Why is Linden Lab acting like the users are just free loading off them? Its like Linden lab is a non profit and are running Second Life out of the goodness of their heart and so because of that we should let them tell the customers no. Linden Lab knows better, they know better so much that their user base is not growing. How about you open your ears listen to what the customers want, just work on those things and you will have a product that the masses want. They think they don’t have mass adoption because the fly button is on the right side instead of the left, or because third party viewers may offer something different?

    Draxtor I love you but the customers are always right have you heard that? Are we paying Linden Lab or are they paying us? I feel like we got the relationship all out of wack here. You’re right people scream like nuts, I’m probably one of them, but they scream like that about Facebook and Twitter and Digg, but the difference is, people are not paying Facebook 295 a month, for an arbitrarily sized piece of virtual land.

    Gianna yes it is an abused relationship, the customers are like battered wives in this case. Linden Lab is lucky they have something we all want so badly to succeed, any other business or product would have said see ya by now.

    The reason I got made about the third party viewer policy is exactly that, they keep restricting everything, and controlling everything. If the Lab was rolling out features and fixing things like normal companies, I could understand why they don’t open source, but they are slow, when they do release stuff its broken, and they don’t fix it, ask Qarl.:) The best thing that this company could do is allow us to mod it and mess around with it. People would fix and innovate, actually modernize Second Life. Instead we get the opposite. I don’t get it.

    Its either Open Source it or go to Open Sim. The people can shape the development of Open Sim, they can’t with SL. Think about obvious things like just being able to write text on a prim in Second Life or being able to transfer files in Second Life, obviously not big priorities for the Lab who is chasing the golden apple, but a guy doing it for the fun of it could have already by now and numerous other great things none of us have even thought of yet. Rodvik can’t you see this closed model you are working with is holding you back??? For the love of god, let us help you make SL the next iteration of the net. We’re still waiting for features to be developed that should have been no brainers 3 years ago like NPCs. We need to catch up. Open Source the server Rodvik.

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  5. Sorry. I don’t find Botgirl’s essay to be “Unproductive.” Only someone who is a die hard cheerleader/fan girl would object to it. I think she has something to say. I don’t think SL Bloggers are “Unproductive.” I don’t appreciate it when SL pundits complain about those in the community who are critical. They are critics. They have a role to play. This starts to sound a bit like Hamlet’s infamous finger-pointing at the critical users. I can’t count on my fingers anymore the number of prominent SL personalities who have left the platform because of the half-assed manner in which Linden Lab runs their business and their failure to understand and practice good Public Relations.

    • Kim/Gianna says:

      Hi, Wizard! Thanks for commenting.

      I don’t understand how you can characterize me (or anyone for that matter) simply as a “fangirl” implying that I blanketly and blindly take Linden Lab’s side no matter what when that is clearly not true. It sounds as if you are completely disregarding the opinion of anyone who takes Linden Lab’s side solely because they took Linden Lab’s side.

      To further clarify, I am not complaining about those who are critical. I, myself, have been critical of Linden Lab in the past and spoke about it many times both here and on my blog. As I said in the podcast, I look forward to thought provoking conversations in which we debate these important topics. I agree that critics have a role to play… and an important one at that. There is often a lot to learn from criticism. However, there is a big difference between constructive criticism and destructive criticism. When we stop participating in critical dialog, and turn to fingerpointing and attacking (not just Linden Lab, but each other) it does become unproductive.

      Take for example a food critic. If he/she writes Restaurant A sucks, @#%#@ Restaurant A, Restaurant A doesn’t listen to me, Restaurant A is going to die, etc.. then it carries no weight and offers no basis from which to approve. However, if they write Restaurant A did not take it’s customer base into consideration when it developed it’s expensive fine dining menu in an underprivileged area and it fails to live up to it’s advertised experience because the food was served cold and under cooked, etc then readers can take this into consideration and the restaurant is clear on how it failed.

      In your comment you stated that you disagree with my opinion on Botgirl’s post, but you didn’t offer any reasoning for why or how you disagree or how you find Botgirl’s post to be productive. So you had the opportunity to change our (and perhaps others who listened) opinion’s of her post or share your thoughts about it, but instead you just made generalized criticisms of us and Linden Lab. But, perhaps I’m making unfair assumptions about the point of your argument.

      Regardless, I do appreciate your comment.. and I’m open to hearing your point of view, but I just want to understand it.

      • You can’t deny that the message presented here is that the critics are “unproductive” and paranoid. Draxtor in particular pushes this point of view. “It’s going to be over!” unless we all pull together and act supportive instead of being so unproductively critical! Interestingly then, at 1:03, he totally contradicts himself and says that Botgirl is wrong and it is inconceivable that SL is going to be over! LL has stopped publishing economics and user stats now. Why do you suppose that is? Are the bloggers wrong about their interpretation of that too? For the first time, Open Sim regions outnumber SL private estates. SL User stats and sim stats continue their slow decline. You can put your head in the sand but that doesn’t stop it from being so. I love SL, but that doesn’t stop me from looking very critically at the actions and words of the Lindens. I have some hope left that they can change, but that remains to be seen. You ask Qarl directly if he agrees with Botgirl? What does he say? “I agree with that assessment.” There are 38 posts to Glassdoor about Linden Lab. Read them all through and see if there’s a current there. Interesting that the latest post is a reply from a high-level software supervisor who is still employed there. Any unbiased observer can see through that post to some truth underneath. Evidently there are and were disagreements on the path that SL should take. I would be quite interested to hear some future podcast with former employees (like Qarl) who can give us some insight into those disagreements. At this juncture, there seem to be quite a few to choose from.

        • Kim/Gianna says:

          Ok, first of all as I said before I am not stating that all critics are unproductive and paranoid (where did paranoid come from?). My extended response to Botgirl’s post is here.

          It is not accurate to say that Opensim regions outnumber SL private estates. An article was written with that headline, but if you read the post you would see the headline was completely misleading because it goes on to say that the CEO of the most popular Opensim grid says that 50-60% of OSGrid regions will be purged during upcoming housekeeping due to inactivity.

          I don’t want to speak for Qarl, and so I’ll ask him about this again on the next podcast. However, it was Qarl who first used the word unproductive and Draxtor and I agreed. Also, if you go back and listen to what Qarl said he does begin with “I agree” but says he agrees that OLD/PAST management was scared specifically of the community. He never says management was/is scared of fixing the big problems or the agrees with the conclusion Botgirl draws. Also when I say I disagree because we have new management now, he agrees with me. But, again, I don’t want to speak for him so I will ask him for further clarification. You also mention Glassdoor has 38 posts, but they are anonymous users… anyone could have wrote them. Regardless, we have had several former Lindens on the show (in addition to Qarl) and I will continue to invite them.

  6. Thanks for the link. That said, I would have appreciated a more substantive critique of the points I made in the post, instead of what amounted to a dismissal due to a single source I cited in the opening paragraph. Although the employee review I quoted inspired me to think about the issue again, the bulk of the post was based on three or four years of closely following both Second Life, as well as the virtual worlds industry.

    To summarize my perspective, Second Life is built on ten year old technology that has inherent limitations. (If it was easy or cheap to fix, sims wouldn’t still lag down to a crawl when forty avatars gather and the client software wouldn’t routinely crash.) Since the virtual world market is stagnent, it wouldn’t make good business sense to invest in what would likely be a risky and expensive reengineering of the platform.

    Today, Second Life is a profitable $75 million per year business. But they’re faced with maturing Open Sim competitors that are offering private land (the main source of revenue) for 75% less. Any company, in any industry would have to be nervous in that situation. So it makes sense that Linden Lab is investing in new products while they’re still cash-rich.

    That’s the heart of it. You can take another look at the original blog post for more detail. Feel free to comment here or there.

  7. Yes, SL users should be clear. LL should also be clear; let’s for once and all have a precise, explicit definition of just what the [insert favorite expletive] “shared experience” means, and have that definition be made part of official policy, please.

    • Kim/Gianna says:

      I agree that the Lindens also have an obligation to be clear as well. Having said that, I think the definition of “shared experience” is more of a legal issue.

  8. Crap Mariner says:

    Busted up laughing when I saw the title of the show.

    The finest irony… Reed takes a break, productive communication results.

    And thank you, Qarl. You’ve put a lot into perspective.


  9. Vanessa says:

    There’s an old saying – ‘you get what you pay for’ and this applies to opensim as much as Secondlife.

    The recent headlined article by Maria Korolov claiming that opensim had exceeded the number of sims that Secondlife has was proven to be deliberately misleading. Due to a massive cull, these figures were cut by up to 60% – I don’t have the link to the articles, but I’m sure it’s easy to find.

    Opensim will, on its current path, always be the poor cousin, the $2 shop version of Secondlife. So many of the advocates of opensim – for example the former Pathfinder Linden – have their own agenda and product to push, therefore relish the idea of trashing Secondlife, to gain support for their own products. Hardly an impartial perspective.

    As we move beyond the 10 year anniversary of Linden World/Secondlife, this virtual world is still considered by many to be a conceptual leap into the future. As long as the dreamers still dream, the creators still imagine, and the engineers still innovate, Secondlife will remain in the forefront of VW development, IMO. And Opensim will always tag along behind. Of course I could be wrong, time will tell.

  10. Sean Brady says:

    Still listening to the show, the conversation is good as always. I want to comment on Parcel Windlight though. I do feel that it is a clear example of where the user experience is affected by a feature only available in certain viewers. I have used Firestorm for most of my SL career. At the beginning of the year I started using Exodus though, and parcel windlight went away. As a sim owner I started reading about how to use region windlight settings to replace parcel settings on my sim. I also started to notice that some places I visited looked different in Exodus. That was because the owner of the parcel used parcel windlight, and in Exodus I was seeing the region settings (or LL default). To me this is exactly why the parcel windlight breaks the shared experience rule, it allows the owner of a parcel to show things to one user differently than another, isnt that the essence of shared experience? Also, the region windlight settings have the advantage of being stored server side. I remember when I went to Bryn Ohs Anna’s Many Murders. It was before region settings were available and in order to see the windlight you had to set it manually or download the settings for display in Firestorm/Phoenix. Even though you can set parcel specific settings, the inability to store them on the server breaks the shared experience because even on Firestorm if I don’t have that windlight I may see something different that other people.

    I look forward to Linden Labs providing their own option in the settings for parcels.

  11. Draxtor, I really wish you would try to understand the issue even a little bit before you declare how everybody is “whining”. The problem is not that LL changed TPV policy about online status, the problem is that they have decided to break LSL functionality that makes that possible. And not only for those that explicitly set their preference not to make their online status available, but for all. So even if I setup my online status to be public, the scripts will still see them as offline.

    This breaks a lot of stuff: ever seen those ad boards around clubs with green or red bars on the bottom indicating that you can contact the advertiser if they’re online? Yeah, you can trash the lot now. Also upgrade and delivery servers that check online status to avoid inventory loss, well they’re are never going to give you that update now since as far as they’re concerned never going to be online again.

    I have checked if Received Items solves the problem with inventory offers from objects. It doesn’t. Lindens are aware of it, but have no immediate plans to do anything about it as far as I could tell.

    • Kim/Gianna says:

      Oz specifically addresses the meeting and states that this change will not effect online status objects as long as they are showing the status of the owner/creator.

      • Latif Khalifa says:

        None of the examples I mention involve displaying online status of the owner or the creator so I don’t really know that what you’re replying. Anyway, the point is moot, Linden Lab has realized that they’d be breaking a ton of legit content and decided to postpone changes to LSL indefinetly. Good thing there was someone there to let them know about it.

  12. After listening to the full podcast, I have to say I’m very disappointed. Kudos to Qarl who did try to clarify the biggest problems with the 4th of the newly added articles to the TPV.

    But the other two hosts sound like the audio version of Hamlets repeated rant of how the biggest problem of Second Life is that it’s got bad users. Except Draxtor calls them “unproductive” when he feels charitable, and “toxic” and “corrosive” otherwise. If only SL had better users, none of the executive management lack of communication, inability to prioritize projects would matter.

    Gianna says she wants to believe that the new management will do things differently. My guess is that she bases that belief on what Oz said during that meeting. My question is, how many years does it take? Rodvik has been there little more than a year, Oz nearly two. What has changed? In practice very little. They are still dragging their feet about accepting patches. I know many TPV developers who have submited patches that just sit on the review board untouched.

    Just a few weeks back Qarl’s own prim alignment tool got rejected. This hasn’t happen under M Linden, nor 5 years ago. So what were we supposed to do? Sit idly and wait some more years to see of Oz really means what he says. Or raise hell and tell LL just how stupid that decision was? Luckily, not everybody shares Gianna’s and Draxtor view and LL did notice and we might be getting the prim alignment tool after all.

    What I found the most disturbing in the podcast was allegations leveled against the Phoenix team. (Disclaimer: I’m not a part of that team, I often disagree with them on many issues)

    Gianna comes with claims that the Phoenix team supposedly doesn’t want to share their code with Linden Lab among other things because they make money on it (OMG they make $800 bucks a month in advertising). Anybody who has an ounce of clue would know this is not the case. None of the TPV developers do it for the money, not even close. Do some math, how many people are involved in developing Phoenix? Perhaps 10 developers and 50-60 support. So even if all the advertising money was shared among developers, and none of the cost of running servers and such was payed from that, and none of the support got anything, it comes to $80 a month. That assuming that they actually distribute the income at all (they say they don’t distribute money to individuals at all, I have no way of knowing).

    Gianna, my advice to you: if you really want to know what TPV developers mean, you should try talking to others than just the Exodus development team. They have their own agenda and you shouldn’t take part in their mudslinging campaign (I’m sure you didn’t do this on purpose, hence my advice on getting a broader picture).

    • Kim/Gianna says:

      Let me clarify.. I am not claiming that all developers are evil and only after money. Nor am I claiming that everyone on the Phoenix team is like that. I have seen one or two of them actively submitting code and participating in the open source dev community. Other than that I have not seen any of the most vocal active Phoenix devs contribute any code. If they have, it happens so rarely that I’ve missed it. I see you and others contributing and participating. If I’m wrong, please show me where on the code review site where that’s happening. Let me also clarify what I meant about profiting. To be clear, I was not saying that the Phoenix devs all do it for the money. I agree the money is not distributed and was referring to Jessica alone.

      I haven’t seen Exodus sling any mud, in fact, I think they’ve been almost completely silent through this whole thing. I talk to quite a few devs and would be happy to talk to anyone. Even though I often disagree with you, I appreciate your comments here.

      • Latif Khalifa says:

        You said that Linden Lab has asked TPV developers, Firestorm in particular, to allow their features to be used in the official viewer, but this request was denied. You went on to speculate that this must because they don’t want to lose the monetary gain they derive from the Firestorm project. This sounds like something that Ash Qin would be spreading around, which is why I suggested that perhaps it would be good for you to check such claims before blindly trusting your source. If this was in reference to Jessica alone, it makes even less sense, since Jessica doesn’t develop new features, she manages the project, so I’m having hard time imagining what Linden Lab could have asked her personally to contribute that she denied.

        Ash has setup Exodus licensing in such way so that they could use any code and features from all other TPVs but that nobody else could use theirs. This setup happens to make distribution of Exodus illegal since it violates the license that is allowing them to distribute it (and Linden Lab and Oz Linden are working on making Ash and friends rectify this). But besides the legalese, what sort of person does this? They take Firestorm code into Exodus, and when they hear complaints about their shady practices, they start slinging mud at everybody else. And then you repeat their mudslinging on the podcast. Things that don’t any have basis in reality.

        • Kim/Gianna says:

          I meant the two things as separate points. I didn’t mean to imply that it was Jessica who was asked to contribute the parcel settings code. The first point was just that many of the well known devs don’t ever or at minimum very rarely contribute their code, even when asked. The story of the parcel settings code was just an example of that. The second point was that *some* viewer devs appear to have ulterior motives. Jessica profits from the advertising because she is the one who sets it up and runs it. However, I don’t doubt that her motives are larger then just money. She wants Phoenix/Firestorm to remain “on top” no matter what. During the last Phoenix OH, she apparently was on a call with Oz because after the recording was over she admitted to the whole audience that he was there telling her what to say. Maybe that was the case, maybe it wasn’t, but what was the point of that? She also admitted that she wanted to get rid of a certain features and she was trying to get Oz to declare it a privacy violation so she could “blame him” for removing it. To me, this doesn’t sound like a person of good intentions or who cares about what’s best for SL or the SL community. Though some of her actions I was present for and therefore don’t need a “source,” I do agree with you about not getting involved in mudslinging. I just think it’s important that before we raise our protest signs, let’s be clear not only on what we’re protesting, but also what we’re supporting.

          • Latif Khalifa says:

            Let me put it this way. I have seen literally hundreds of patches and features being submitted by opensource developers that got rejected or more frequently just ignored, from the day the viewer was opensourced till the rejection of Qarl’s prim alignment tool. Nothing has changed in the past year or two since Rodvik and Oz are there in this respect.

            And it’s really puzzling if Linden Lab indeed has asked for parcel windlight code. Mostly for technical reasons. Setting windlight is trivial in the viewer, it had this ability since 2007. The tricky part is having server maintain a persistatn record of windlight settings that it then sends to the viewer for each parcel, and having viewer upload those to the grid. Obviously no TPV can do this as it requires majority of the work on the server side of things, so it makes no sense to me, this supposed asking for Firestorm parcel windlight code.

          • Kim/Gianna says:

            My understanding of it is that it was a request to work with them on these features, not a request for the code.

          • Jessica Lyon says:

            Oz skyped me during the office hour to ask me to state that LL had put on hold the breakage of the LSL function used to look up online status. If that’s what you consider telling me what to say.. then that’s your opinion I guess.

            True online status is a damned if we do and damned if we don’t issue. There’s more than half of the phoenix users who want it, and there are of course legit use cases for it. There is also a very strong argument that there are dozens of other ways one can look up someones online status. So yes.. I’ve been Lobbying Oz and LL to fix this problem for months even if it means via policy. By ‘this problem’ I mean.. all the ways a user can circumvent the viewers privacy setting.

            As for mudslinging. I’m sorry but that’s all I’ve seen and heard here. And largely all based on incorrect assumptions and personal bias based on personal opinion that has no factual grounds. As a journalist in real life, I find it offending that someone like you would offer up facts without putting in the slightest bit of effort into finding out what the real facts are. It’s absurd, irresponsible and slanderous.

          • Kim/Gianna says:

            I didn’t say Oz was on the phone with you.. You did. If he was only addressing that one point then it was you who mislead everyone. My only knowledge of that situation came directly from you.

            As far as the rest, as I said before I rarely involve myself in these he said/ she said situations, but after I watched you wait until the filming of your OH was over to take shots at LL, Karl, and everyone else then I felt it was time someone needed to address the lack of integrity you showed.

            As for your allegations, my information was not based on speculation and most of it and my opinion came from you and how you handled yourself. As for being a journalist, it’s an opinion show. And I thought you were a photographer? Also, those who live in glass houses shouldn’t throw stones.. Or when you slanderously attacked people after your OH including saying Karl had a “hacker mentality” that was fact and not slanderous?

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  14. Jessica Lyon says:

    For the record, we have NEVER refused to give LL features. In fact LL essentially goes shopping in our repositories, gives us a list and we submit it. There are dozens of features from our viewers waiting in code review.

    No idea where you get this $800/ month. That’s crazy talk, we certainly don’t make that much. And the money we do make from advertising is spent on licensing like KDU, digitally certificates to verify our binaries and a region we are opening up for new comers to second life. None of us receive any personal income.

    All the hate towards the Phoenix/Firestorm team in this podcast is grossly unfounded and based on false speculations, rumors and ignorance. Statements made about us are largely incorrect. I would have appreciated having been approached to at least offer you some facts rather than be the subject of false accusations.


    Jessica Lyon
    Project Manager
    The Phoenix Viewer Project, Inc

    • Jessica Lyon says:

      Oh and for the record, we asked LL to help us implement shared parcel WL so that everyone could enjoy it.. they weren’t interested, in fact they asked us NOT to do it. They were focused on region WL, which is not what the residents of SL wanted. Residents in SL wanted parcel WL and that’s what we gave them.

    • Kim/Gianna says:

      Hi Jessica. Glad you decided to comment. I never said you refused to give them code and I am aware how repositories work. What I said was that LL asked you to work with them (as opposed to just providing them with code they can already see) and the answer given was that dev didn’t have time. This was not wide speculation, rumors, or ignorance as you imply. If you ever have listened to our show or read my blog you would know I very, very rarely even enter these kinds of conversations, but I think the lack of integrity you showed after your OH’s forced me to question your motives. As for the money, I disagree, but I don’t think you need to defend that. In the big picture, $800 is not that much money. I’m just trying to understand your motivations.

      • Siana Gearz says:

        Why do you even keep quoting those $800 a month, can you give a source for that? Unless you do, i’ll just assume you’re talking out of your ass.

        Oh, you’re an “opinion show”. And it doesn’t look like you need proper facts to base your opinion on. You lead every second “fact” in like “I don’t know whether it’s true, but i heard that…” OK, how is that not “wide speculation, rumors, or ignorance”? And oh every opinion which disagrees with yours is “based on speculation” and is “unproductive”. Right. Sorry, you have to measure yourselves by the same rule as you apply to others.

        There are technical reasons for which LL don’t want Parcel WindLight for their official viewer they way it’s implemented in Phoenix and Firestorm, with the protocol being the issue, and i can elaborate on that if you like. The particular implementation is really trivial and has no particular value if Parcel WindLight were to be implemented based on any other protocol, so they couldn’t have asked for it, or rather, it wouldn’t have made even the slightest sense for LL to ask to contribute this, really.

        What kind of “snowstorm system” you have joined? We don’t really use the mailing list or whatever else is there, most things are contributed in person with Oz or on IRC channel with JIRA to tie the process together when it’s already been negotiated. Because frankly without a person on the other end who is genuinely interested, it’s NEVER gonna be accepted. And if it’s accepted, it’s still part of Snowstorm whether any particular Modus Operandi has been followed or not.

        The whole point you’ve been driving home with “LL asking to TPVs to submit features and them not being submitted” is pure bullshit. It doesn’t happen because it doesn’t work or is too tedious. I have a recent case on my mind in which – which is a huge rarity – Oz Linden expressed a wish for a feature from Firestorm, Firestorm people have willingly signed over the rights to LL on that code, and then… the process just stalled. LL were apparently unhappy with how it has been done, so they rejected it. Now another Snowstorm community contributor is beating it into shape which Snowstorm might eventually accept, and i helped him figure out some details, but it’ll still take months. And contributing code which is already there is one thing, sure, if it’s already there, few people would refuse to contribute it really, and Firestorm people don’t refuse to contribute. Doing work by spec is completely different! It’s what people do when they’re paid for it! I couldn’t blame anybody for not wanting to do that on their free time. Unless it’s a bug fix spanning 5 lines tops, every Snowstorm contribution is a really, really tedious thing which will take MONTHS and a lot of a person’s time, and often involves to-spec rework. I am a Snowstorm member and i keep my eye on things done there to help out, and i’m a lead developer of a somewhat popular TPV, so i think my experience has some validity, but if my take on this isn’t enough for you, you can just ask anyone else who has ever had to deal with it. And in the recent months, nothing has changed really. As i’ve said on the last TPVD meeting, when Oz was mentioning to do something for himself as a hobby, i said that as a hobby he should do more of what he expects of his contributors. Though i can see how the situation is hard for him too, because i have seen a number of Lindens who generally distrust external contributions in spite of them being carefully reviewed. Case in point, thread safety enhancements contributed by Aleric which have been removed from official viewer a couple months ago, as it turns out, for no valid reason at all at a whim of one of Linden Lab developers. This kind of thing is what discouraged Aleric from ever contributing to Linden Lab again after he contributed to them for half a year (back then in Snowstorm), and others see that, and they’re be discouraged. Oz and Rodvik have been there for a year, and all i say is very recent events, so they can’t pull the “it’s a different company” card, they really can’t, they can’t make ANY excuse except try to change and convince us by actions now. Things became worse recently: since a month or two there is no Snowstorm team of Lindens any longer, it was terminated, Oz is the only one left, so Lindens can’t even help bring the code they want into the shape they want any longer, it all falls back onto the Residents.

        And oh, Mesh Adoption jumping from 30% to 70%… very few people jumped from 1.23 of those who had still been using it. Most of it is just Phoenix releasing a mesh compatible version and people updating their Phoenix over time. People change viewers very rarely and as a whole, very very very slowly.

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